The concept of talent as a god-given blessing is inherently wrong. It actively hinders people to try new stuff and suck at it at first.
Because that is what you'll do when you try new things: you will suck. For some time. Yes, some will learn faster than others, experiences differ! But if you want to learn something new, please don't think you need any kind of talent for that.
What you need is passion. And time.
And the courage to fail.
Yes, this is my pet peeve. Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.
Oh, and btw: having access to good instructions for your level of experience and having good materials really does help! I've taught some people basic skills of drawing, watercolor painting and music theory, and the quality of the teacher and the material really makes a huge difference.
@TQ 👏👏👏
Time and time again I'm explaining this to people.
@TQ "Oh you're so talented."
Yeah… I only invested like 12000 hours in it…
@pilum yes. This. So much this.
@TQ Case in point, I've recently invested 20+ hours in improving a specific skill, and I consider that having barely begun. 😋
@pilum yes. It takes time, which is very daunting. I get that, really. But the whole journey is worth it. And especially in the beginning its possible to make progress quickly, which is fun!
@TQ I have the impression "talented" people, especially those successful at young ages, often had lots of support early on. It doesn't have to be financial or formal, although qualified instruction goes a very long way.
There is one video from "Korea's got talent" that I find very informative when it comes to that. I'll look for it later.
@pilum @TQ Mozart is actually a good example of this. His father was not only a professional musician, but a rather successful one at that. He had the connections to market his children as prodigial.
Looking at how a lot of "prodigial children" fade out of the spotlight once they reach adulthood, the remarkable thing about Mozart is that he continued to be successful and his originality.
@pilum @TQ on the other hand, I tried to learn the recorder when I was 6, and then when was 10 (that time I had to, for school). I didn't get it, it brought me no joy, so I left it in favor of the guitar. Do I lack talent for wind instruments? I don't know; perhaps I just never got the instruction that made it "click" for me.
@draco @TQ I think that interest and aptitude are two sides of the same coin. And that aptitude plays some part in acquiring talent, as it were.
It's hard (but not impossible) to put in the effort if it doesn't interest you. But the right teacher for you can bring interest to otherwise uninteresting subjects.
🤔 In some cases, I think people are just using the word *talent* interchangeably with *skill*, and not really reflecting on how different they can be.
@TQ I prefer when people make comments on my work rather than on me. But to be fair I'd take "you're talented" over <the deep silent void> anyday 😃
@loveisanalogue well, tbh I rather take honest criticism than a weird pseudo-compliment that has literally nothing to do with anything. But that's me. I like being criticized from time to time.
@TQ @loveisanalogue tbh it is just as absurd to ignore talent as it is to credit talent for hard work and practice. It is like saying tallness is only a matter of practice. Yes, eating well and other factors contribute, but they are not the whole story. Perhaps you’d like to demote talent conceptually because it can be a barrier to practice for some - it seems like maybe that persons perspective should change
@salamander @loveisanalogue in your opinion.
My argument is still that if a person wants to learn basic skills that bring them joy, they don't need talent. In my opinion and experience as well as what I remember from psychology classes, talent may be what separates good outcomes from genius outcomes.
@TQ @loveisanalogue I understand the argument and agree with the first sentence above. I don’t agree with the second sentence above. I think what you want to say is that excellence requires practice and the ability to fail happily and learn from those outcomes, regardless of the talent you have; that practice is more transferrable as a skill, and that also maximizing utility is not the point of life or what brings everyone happiness, all things I agree with.
@TQ @loveisanalogue for example, given the same amount of practice and perseverance at a given skill, there exists people such that they will have drastically different abilities at that skill. This can be for 1 year or 20 years of practice and could have neither practitioner be “genius”, simply different in ability. This is obvious for things like playing a sport, surgery, etc. but is still at play for other crafts where it might be less obvious.
@salamander hmm. I get what you're saying, and yet I still don't share your opinion. After mastering basic skills, people tend to acquire more specialized knowledge in a domain. Say someone starts to paint with watercolors. The basics that they have to master are pretty clear, they have to understand how the medium works, what amount of water does what, basic color theory. After that, they might specialize in watercolor sketching, or elaborate portraits, or surreal landscapes.
@salamander my point being that after the basics have been mastered, the quality of the outcome often won't be comparable. I think people search out the niches they enjoy and care about. So yes, if you'd measure the outcome in one specific area, there may be individual differences due to something one might label talent. What I'm saying is that this label isn't helpful, and could be broken down into grit, passion and prior experience.
@TQ all of this. I had a natural aptitude/affinity for math (arithmetic, rather) and reading, by which I mean I gained skill in them quickly and with relatively little hard work. But then those became the things my family rewarded me for. So anything later that didn't come easily, like music, I was able to relegate to being "unimportant to me." Also led to going to an elite university at age 15, and then being a C student.
@TQ Absolutely agree. And mostly they mean well so it is hard to find a response.
I've settled on "I work at it!", accompanied by a radiant smile to soften the blow!
@virtuosew sounds like a good method.
@TQ Feel free to take and adapt, if it helps!
@virtuosew I got my own method. I just slyly remind the commenting person if the work I put in. I don't mind the harshness, to be fair.
@TQ I have Strong Feelings about people saying I'm talented, like it implies some innate ability that dismisses the fact that I spent hours drawing mandalas every single day for several years
@welshpixie yes! This! Thiiiis!
@dmbaturin hm. I would factor in that sometimes, learning looks different. For me, listening intently to music has helped me understand music theory better. Looking very, very closely at faces has helped me with painting portraits. And I'm sure I got some good learning experiences when I was very little.
But I helped some people along the way, too. People who thought they had no talent. They learned very quickly. I don't think that talent is really important, if it even exists.
@dmbaturin I'd argue that what good methods and teachers are differs for different people. And as I said, there is the impact of prior experience!
But that doesn't necessarily imply the influence of talent. And even if we said there was something like talent, I'd still argue the influence is nothing compared with effort.
@dmbaturin okay, I see what you mean now. And yes, I get it. But you are otherwise able to play, right? On a level well above beginner? And you enjoy it? Because that is what I mean.
It's sad that many people don't even try because they think they need a special talent that allows them to do a thing.
@dmbaturin I see. Motoric skills can be really tricky, and some specific abilities are *way* easier picked up early in life. It's a thing, but I still think it's not the same as lacking talent.
You can express yourself on the piano, you can have fun while playing. And if you are really annoyed by your lack of hand independence, maybe to enjoy music making more fully you could switch to a different instrument. But I'd still argue it's not musical talent you're lacking?
@dmbaturin hm. I think we've arrived at different definitions of what talent is or what we mean by it.
@dmbaturin yes, but I think we differ in what that "something" is. You stick it specifically to playing one instrument in your example. I'd argue it's broader, like the term "musical talent" would imply.
@TQ the concept of talent also hides the importance of the environment you live in. It’s easier to become great if you’re exposed to people who are great already. And teachers have a big role to play as well.
@electret yes, I agree. I get why people arrive at thinking that talent may be inherited, when there are some families with multiple "talented" members. It certainly looks like talent if you don't look very, very closely.
@TQ Good point. When I was in school, starting playing guitar around age 13, I was convinced that I was not "talented" at music in the same way as certain others (who had started years before) and that idea stuck with me for many years.
Despite being in a band, writing songs, and always passing music class with the best grades, I kept this attitude for a long time, which discouraged me from really investing time and energy into learning or making something with music.
@radicalresilience the concept of talent is so problematic.
@radicalresilience it's a good thing you kept practicing, btw! 💖
people can learn new things, and most people who are good at something probably started out as pretty bad at that thing.
I accidentally told someone (if she ever reads this: I miss you!) who sang well that they had talent, as a compliment. She scolded me, saying it was hard-earned practice, that she was downplaying how she had put in so many hours etc, she got pretty angry.
However.
The flip side of that coin is that she, in that reaction, was downplaying how many hours I on my end had put in, trying and failing to learn to sing. She has no idea how much I've tried, how much I've practiced and struggled. Months and months of full-time practice only to end up with a broken voice.
I learned my lesson, that "talent" is a minefield word, but I still feel kind of salty about that flip side.
It's also not just hours. I'm finally getting the hang of making art but that's after almost 20 years. With better feedback, instruction, or a community of tips and support I could've learned way faster. There's still art stuff I'm realizing that I'm like "I wish someone would've told me that years and years ago!"
@Sandra yes. Time alone doesn't help. It's the act of finding your current edge of competence and working there, where it may hurt. Good teachers can help a lot, good instructions, the right material. The right mindset also.
@TQ You are so right. I also get the perception that claimed (lack-of-) talent is used to keep people from trying something, and also gets associated with age, like "if you had talent, you'd have discovered it long ago, so why trying this now, at your age?..." - as I'm not that young anymore, I tend to get upset when perceiving that kind of stoppers. I think respecting these or not is the core of "staying childish (=just eager to learn?)" - or getting domesticated and predictable.
@TQ this got kicked off with the phrase “god-given talent” and i’m not sure that can be discounted completely. in the throes of the creative act, i’ve felt something ‘other’ working with, swept away as if to say, “this is not me doing this” true there is a lot of hard work, but the act of creation is miraculous to me. thank you.
@steve well, that's a completely different angle. 
@TQ love everything about this thread // wanted to add that jake from adventure time quote thats been helping me in this area: "dude, sucking at somethin is the first step towards bein sorta good at somethin"
On the other hand, the concept of talent downplays the effort and time people have invested in mastering a skill. As an artist, I especially dislike it. It's like being accused of cheating when you literally invested years or even decades of your lifetime into getting better.
Calling someone talented is not a compliment. 💖